I have recently become entirely skeptical of my christian faith, after realising that I have blindly followed a “personal” God my whole 23 years alive who has never so much as whispered “cheesecake” into my ears. I am in the position of being honest and open for the first time, with my wife of near on two years, and soon our families, all of whom are devoutly faithful, and have, and will, make many bold claims of miracles they have personally witnessed, or had performed on them (including the insidious “one leg shorter than the other” gag). My position is of someone thirsty for truth, but completely confused.
I’m not sure if anyone here has read “The Heavenly Man” about Brother Yun. I have tried a quick google search,but found little more than book reviews and occasional blogs, none of which criticise it from a secular perspective. Can anyone explain the prison break, or give similar non-religious occurrences?
Also, how do I respond to “testimonies” without being completely offensive?
Posted: January 20th 2009
George Ricker www
Why respond to “testimonies” at all?
Unless the event being reported can be replicated and independently verified and tested, it has absolutely no value as evidence of anything except someone’s personal belief that it happened that way.
It is not incumbent upon the non believer to prove the claims of believers invalid. It is incumbent upon believers to demonstrate they are valid.
Always remember that nonsense does not become less nonsensical just because someone really, really, really believes it to be true. Sincerity, no matter how heartfelt, is not a valid argument.
Posted: April 12th 2009
SmartLX www
Here’s how to respond to “testimonies”.
Before the people giving the testimony had the particular religious experiences, would he/she have believed them coming from someone else? Do they expect you to believe them with no more support than they would have had? Shouldn’t they simply be praying that you have a similar experience and see for yourself?
Posted: January 20th 2009
logicel
There are heaps and heaps and heaps of miracles which Christians claim as evidence for the supernatural and for their god. And tons of books on the subject of Christian miracles. Toss The Heavenly Man onto those heaps. If you are gullible enough to believe extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence, why be stymied just by The Heavenly Man?
As for why there is little atheist rebuttal to Yun’s claims is because atheists could care less about miracles. Let’s say our fatigue regarding miracles is similar to the village folks getting tired of the boy calling wolf so many times.
Apparently the author was a Christian persecuted by the Chinese because in China at that time religious beliefs were not allowed. Since Yun was not the only Chinese Christian—did god perform miracles for all those other persecuted Christians and help them to escape? If not, why not? God does seem to have a penchant for favoritism so maybe he loved Yun more than the other tortured Christians (If I were them, I would lodge a complaint for unfair treatment with my god!) His prison escape happened because it was possible, otherwise it would not have happened. Not understanding how it happened does not mean one cops the easy way out and calls it a miracle.
I certainly would be offensive if faced with folks mumbling about their testimonies of supernatural happenings. I would clearly state that I do not buy any of that nonsense, that I require extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims, and that my mind isn’t so open that my brains fall out as apparently the brains of these folks testifying have.
In addition I would counter their anecdotal accounts with my own—in my sixty years I have not witnessed/experienced one supernatural miracle. Ever. And then I would run far away from these scary, irrational people.
As it seems that god has never made its presence known to you, you still really have no reason to believe. Instead of being thirsty for truth, why not just settle for reality?
Posted: January 20th 2009