I have a partner of nearly 2 years and it’s just recently that we are very seriously considering marriage. Although I am of the mind to be with a partner at the very least 5 years before getting married, it is something we are now considering. One little obstacle though- he is a Mormon and I am an atheist.
Being extremely open and comfortable with each other for 2 years, our only qualms are the raising of potential children: god vs no god, and homosexuality: acceptable or not.
He believes in god, I believe in energy. He believes gays/lesbians should be able to have the same legal marriage rights as any man/woman marriage, he is just of the opinion that it is not natural, and should not be accepted as such. He does not want his children believing that homosexuality is okay and natural.
When it comes to god, we’ve been fine leaving the discussion at, my 'god’ is the ever present energy throughout the universe. its everywhere- light, sound, etc. It’s proven. It’s a fact. And its in all things. Every THING has energy, and we’re all woven together in this giant tapestry of it, all the time subtly influencing each other.
His opinion is that 'god’ is the subtle influence. That if you pray, you will feel the holy spirit influence and guide you in your decisions.
I apologize for the lengthy explanation, but I feel it necessary to be able to properly reply.
With that in mind, my ultimate question is: what arguments can I give him to illuminate/enlighten him on the opinions of 'there is no god’ (at least, of the sort he has been raised to believe in), and 'homosexuality is okay’ ?
Granted, homosexuality IS a genetic mutation, but that doesn’t mean that it’s a bad variation. It’s just a variation. But by no means does that make it wrong or.. unacceptable. What can I say to make this clear to him?
I’m asking YOU because after reading so many of your replies I can see that you are all very knowledgeable and insightful- you have many sources you are able to quote from and are very eloquent in your manner of speech. I am, at this point in my life, still rather naive and although i can 'feel’ my argument, I have no way of giving or defending it properly or accurately. Any and all help is very very much appreciated.
Posted: July 7th 2009
brian thomson www
Assuming you are in the USA, there is a clear statement of tolerance in your Declaration of Independence:
bq. We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness;
Note the absence of qualification in that statement: no ifs, ands or buts. Your Founders knew what they were doing, and you can find many references to the fact that they did not intend the USA to be governed by any religion, such as the First Amendment to the Constitution, and the Treaty of Tripoli.
Posted: July 22nd 2009
Eric_PK
Be very careful about marriages with differing religious beliefs. I’ve only seen them work when one party was willing to adopt the beliefs of the other. This is especially true when it comes to children – there is no way to compromise on this and a lot of theists who have seemed reasonable and not terribly devout become very different when the kids show up. I know multiple couples who broke up because of this very thing.
As for your specific question, sexuality is a continuum throughout nature. See Homosexual behavior in animals for a bunch of examples.
As for what you can say to change his mind, you won’t be happy with my answer, but here it is…
Nothing you can say will change his mind. While some people do end up changing their religious beliefs, it is very very rare that it happens because somebody else says something to them. The whole point of faith is that you believe it despite anything to the contrary.
The question you should ask yourself is, “how would I feel about staying with this person for the rest of my life knowing that their views will always be at odds with my own and that there will likely be conflict because of it?”
Unless you can honestly say that you would be okay with that, you shouldn’t marry this person. It’s not fair to either of you.
Posted: July 8th 2009
Reed Braden www
If your partner accepts that gay couples should have equal rights to straight couples, all the hard work is done.
Convincing someone that homosexuality is natural is so easy that it’s almost hilarious. Homosexuality occurs in nearly all animal species. Animals, including humans, are a part of nature. Therefore homosexuality occurs in nature. Therefore homosexuality is natural… Unless your partner is using some secret Mormon definition of the word natural.
It’s really that simple.
What isn’t natural is the belief that a shill from New York led a bunch of settlers to Utah and read off of some mysterious golden plates written in some bastardized hieroglyphic language that black people have no souls before the plates vanished off to heaven. But that’s a story for another time and place.
Posted: July 8th 2009
SmartLX www
Before I start, I’d like you to consider something about your “energy” concept. Does this energy have an intelligence of its own? Does it want things, and affect the universe to make them happen? If so, it’s effectively a theistic entity and your partner has good reason to compare it to the Holy Spirit, or for that matter the Force from Star Wars. If not, your partner would have to establish that the energy does act intelligently for there to be a chance that it’s the Holy Spirit.
Anyway, homosexuality is probably not a genetic mutation alone. If it were, then due to its extremely adverse effect on the chances of procreating, it would have edited itself out of the gene pool by now.
There is no scientific consensus on the causes of homosexuality, probably because it’s a combination of several factors, biological and psychological. There is however a near-universal scientific consensus on one thing: it cannot be deliberately changed. It may alter over the course of a person’s lifetime, but ex-gay therapy just doesn’t work.
Homosexuality isn’t the norm, because it occurs in a minority. It is natural, in a sense at least, because it can occur without anyone meaning it to, and in fact occurs often in other animals. The most important thing is that gay people (defined by desire rather than action) are not gay by choice. Those who say that homosexuality is unnatural and should not be accepted are attacking these people for something over which they have no control. It’s comparable to racist or sexist remarks.
The whole ex-gay movement exists to convince people that heterosexuality and therefore homosexuality is a choice, in order to blame homosexuals themselves for their desires and make anti-gay criticism seem more akin to criticism of political persuasion, or taste in music. The results of the therapies speak for themselves, very negatively.
Therefore the question for a Christian is, why would God create people who by His own rules can never have a fulfilling intimate relationship without sinning? Why does marriage as described in the Bible exclude these poor souls, denying them the only haven for sinless sex? That’s what to ask people who bring up scriptural support against homosexuality.
As far as your future kids are concerned, and mine for that matter (my fiancee is Christian, but very liberal), my position would be something like the following.
“Not many people are gay, but not many people are left-handed either. Just like you don’t choose which hand is better, they can’t choose who they’re attracted to. Nobody can. It’s not their fault they’re gay, so they shouldn’t be punished for it.”
Posted: July 7th 2009