I recently read something from Richard Dawkins writings that did not sit well with me. If it is aimed at the “still sort of religious” crowd I understand. If not, well I need to contest that statement (as eloquent as it is). Perhaps it was not originally his statement (I don’t know).
The statement was (I might be paraphrasing) that “There are good people and there are bad people. Only religion makes good people do bad things.” I need to say that, from an elevated rational perspective, this is a somewhat heinous remark. Good people do bad things and hence they become “bad people”?. Yes, I’ll admit some people are just outright malicious, but to imply that religion (as much as I have a distaste for it, except in history books) is the underlying reason for good people turning bad (doing wrong) is a serious fallacy. The truth is, the psychology behind our nature as people is infinitely more complex than the obvious effects that an imperial force can have on its populace (we the people). I’m simply suggesting that, although religion is perhaps the greatest source of “evil” on the planet to date, that people are inherently weak (it’s a global cultural thing) and that regardless of the power structure, if that weakness is not addressed, the outcome will always be very much the same. For example, getting beyond the terms “good person and bad person” might be a good start. I’m not dissing Mr. Dawkins, and I haven’t read much of his material, but as a newbie to his stuff that struck me as, well, not as progressive as I was expecting. I can’t tell if his writing is “visionary” or merely reactionary (as in, was he raised in a religious family?).
Posted: August 16th 2009
SmartLX www
No. Religion can do it, all right, but it’s not unique in that respect.
Posted: August 19th 2009
Eric_PK
I think you’re missing the point.
The question I think that he’s addressing is “how do you get people to do things that they otherwise wouldn’t?”
How do you get them to oppress / hate / kill other human beings, when the majority of the population is composed of feeling humans?
It’s all about figuring out how to create an “us versus them” mindset, so that “us” is right and “them” is wrong.
There are a few common levers for that.
The first is something inherent in the other group. Their skin, sexual preference, socioeconomical class, or polical beliefs are different.
The second is nationalism. We are the chosen ones, they are the enemy.
And, the third is religion.
If you can appeal to those, you can get some people to do things they wouldn’t otherwise do. Of the three, I think religion is the worst because a) the “us vs. them” mindset is very common in most religions and b) faith and the abandonment of rational analysis is considered to be a virtue in most religions. Oh, and c) religions say that they are the source of morality, and that comes straight from god, so if god says it’s okay to kill (infidels / godless communists / abortion doctors), then it must be okay.
I would agree that religion is probably the most effective way to turn good people into bad people, though in most cases its a combination of one or more approaches.
Posted: August 17th 2009
Paula Kirby www
As Bitbutter has said, Dawkins was simply quoting the Nobel physicist Steven Weinberg. The full quote is 'Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.’
I don’t think you can ever expect a soundbite to convey the full complexity of an argument, especially about the nature of 'good’ and 'evil’, but nevertheless I think it is a fair point that religion can, and often does, bring out the worst in otherwise perfectly decent people. We don’t even have to look at extremes such as burning people at the stake for believing in 'the wrong kind of religion’; last year I was involved in arranging for Richard Dawkins to come to the Scottish city I live in to give a public lecture – and suddenly I found that otherwise decent people were calling for me to be sacked from my job for associating myself publicly with him and, by implication, atheism.
Religion often has a very unfortunate effect on people, making them absolutely certain they are right and that others are wrong to the point where they should be silenced or punished or sacked … or burnt at the stake. There is something inherently dangerous about believing you know God’s mind, because it leaves no room for temperance or tolerance. Not all religious people are affected by this tendency, but enough are to make Weinberg’s quote resonate with me, despite not being a full analysis of a complicated phenomenon.
Posted: August 17th 2009
bitbutter www
Dawkins is quoting, or paraphrasing, the physicist Steven Weinberg.
With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil, that takes religion.
It contains some truth, but I agree that it’s a problematic and over-simplified soundbite.
The quote seems to imply that religion is the only thing that can make a good person do bad, while it seems very plausible that there are other factors that can do the same. For instance, there’s the idea that when you put a good person in a position of great power, that position will tend to have a corrupting influence. The person who finds himself in a position of power can be counted on use that power to protect his privilege, even at the expense of what’s generally agreed to be The Good.
Posted: August 16th 2009